federal flight deck officer gun

As you would expect, these pilots have to undergo some pretty thorough training in order to get this privilege. Other uncategorized cookies are those that are being analyzed and have not been classified into a category as yet. (k). The plane was pulled from service for repairs. How do I become a federal flight deck officer? The exact number of active FFDOs is unknown because it is considered classified information to protect the identity of active FFDOs and the integrity of the program. WebTwo Navy Veterans that served together as flight deck crewmen aboard the USS Harry Truman. (d)(4). It would apply whenever a pilot used or did not use a gun. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); We use cookies on our website to give you the most relevant experience by remembering your preferences and repeat visits. Hard working, fast, and worth every penny! They are maybe around 28,000 commercial flights per day, which would amount to about 840,000 per month. I think that figure includes pilots doing re-training so I dont know if that means 800 new pilots join the program every year. Dave is an Aviation Consultant with 15 years of experience in the aviation industry. FFDO training is not your everyday gun safety and shoot at a few targets class. There are even strict rules about the pilot transporting the gun after the plane has landed, as this is the type of thing that is taken very seriously at all times. Pub. Subsec. They may not necessarily have to be on par with a Federal Air Marshal but they need to come to a close level of proficiency. For a full week, pilots review legal issues, use of force, firearms training and defensive tactics. Training to ensure that the officer achieves the level of proficiency with a firearm required under subparagraph (C)(i). How Much Does it Cost to Travel the World? Washington, DC 20591 So it sounds like pilots can definitely carry guns on international flights. However, the AOPA state that any pilot wishing to carry a gun should review the appropriate regulations and should contact the local airport management or law enforcement authorities for approval to land at any airport with a firearm on board. All eligible flight crew members will attend a one week training in Artesia, New Mexico. Pub. Subsec. No one was injured and the aircraft landed safely. Active crew members of all domestic scheduled carriers are eligible for the training program. WebHow do I become a federal flight deck officer? (d)(2). The standards and training needed to qualify and requalify as a Federal flight deck officer. So that has restrained the growth of the program. L. 107296, set out as a note under section 101 of Title 6, Domestic Security. The discharge was the result of the TSA mandated weapons carriage protocol in place at that time. WebPilots flying private planes dont have to undergo a special training program such as the Federal Flight Deck Officer Program to carry a gun. A similar incident happened in China on October 2, 1990. Essentially, from what I can gather, its only supposed to be used if there is some type of hijacking attempt. the Secretary of Transportation shall revise, Not later than 180 days after the date of enactment of this Act [, In carrying out the amendments made by subsection (d) [probably means subsec. [2]. It would also drastically limit the legal liability of airlines, shielding them even from negligence not involving guns or terrorism, say critics of the bill. The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Other. Will your logo be here as well?. However, they cannot detect anomalies hidden in body cavities, despite popular belief. Its authorized by federal statute 49 U.S. Code 44921, which provides an outline of the duties. A lock ( After September 11, 2001, there was a move to make flights safer. (k)(2). It is irrelevant whether the union itself has anything to do with the action. WebThe 12,000 Federal Flight Deck Officers, the pilots who have been approved to carry guns, are reported to have the best behavior of any federal law enforcement agency. "If a pilot believed such a person were aboard and needed to use his gun to subdue or isolate him," Kolczynski said, "he should be allowed to do so without fear of liability.". However, there is always a small chance that a highjacker in a desperate situation will attempt to commandeer an aircraft for personal gain. "And the airlines are being given a free pass for other sorts of breaches, too.". Practical Travel Safety and Security Issues - Federal Flight Deck Officer's Gun Goes Off During Flight - Originally Posted by Teacher49 I do assume they are not sitting there strapped while flying those tedious hours You assume incorrectly. United States Department of Transportation, Aviation Safety Draft Documents Open for Comment, Airport Coronavirus Response Grant Program, Legislation & Policies, Regulations & Guidance, Certificated Remote Pilots including Commercial Operators, Recreational Flyers & Modeler Community-Based Organizations, Next Generation Air Transportation System (NextGen). Not have been terminated for cause by a previous law enforcement employer or have had an approval or authorization revoked by TSA, or been subject to a serious disciplinary action by a previous employer. In order to be deputized as a Federal flight deck officer, a, The training of a Federal flight deck officer in the use of a firearm may be conducted by the, Not later than 2 years after the date of enactment of the TSA Modernization Act, and biennially thereafter, the, In establishing standards under subparagraph (A)(ii), the, Pilots participating in the program under this section shall not be eligible for compensation from the Federal Government for services provided as a Federal flight deck officer. Theres a certain element of risk and danger involved when flying and this has nothing to do with flying the plane itself. Federal Aviation Administration However, we do have some numbers to go off of. Armed pilots whats up with the Federal Flight Deck Officers program? No, generally, aircraft are typically designed to be as light as possible, and a jets skin is usually made of aluminum or light composite material. Reporting instructions will be provided upon registration and successful verification of employment. The FFDO's firearm was appropriately locked and secured and could not have been accessed or fired even if found. 800 Independence Avenue, SW Federal flight deck officer program (a) Establishment.-The Administrator shall establish a program to deputize volunteer pilots of air carriers providing air transportation or intrastate air transportation as Federal law enforcement officers to defend the flight decks of aircraft of such air carriers against acts of criminal violence or air piracy. Exhibits, Territories Financial Support Center (TFSC), Tribal Financial Management Center (TFMC). "He crashes an aircraft with 300 people on board negligently, and who are you going to sue?" These "federal flight deck officers" would receive free training and guns from the government. Just some of our awesome clients tat we had pleasure to work with. There was a case about a year ago in a mall where an off duty cop shot one of these nut jobs that shooting up the mall. [5], On January 13, 2011, a JetBlue FFDO's bag carrying his gun was accidentally picked up by a passenger flying to West Palm Beach, Florida. The plot was foiled when the police officers, along with the help of other passengers, subdued the Hijackers. Functional cookies help to perform certain functionalities like sharing the content of the website on social media platforms, collect feedbacks, and other third-party features. Subsec. In this article, Ill explain if airline pilots can carry guns and some of the limitations around that. Hundreds of airline pilots apply and take part in the program each year. FFDOs can exercise their authority within a specific jurisdiction. According to 49 U.S. Code 44921 Federal flight deck officer program, In consultation with the Secretary of State, the Administrator may take such action as It is possible that things could have been different on 9/11. What Can Airport Scanners Detect? The exact number of active FFDOs and their distribution among airlines and flight routes is classified under 49 U.S. Code 44921(d). Like above the clouds? These "federal flight deck officers" would receive free training and guns from the government. This Walking Pad treadmill made getting 10,000 steps a How to get tickets for Depeche Mode's new tour dates. When First Class and Business Class Are the Same: Explaining Google Flights, 21 Hotel Etiquette Tips: Become a More Considerate Traveler . The firearm types and their specifics are classified under 49 U.S. Code 44921, however the Heckler & Koch USP Compact .40-caliber pistol - with the company's "LEM" trigger design - was selected for a 4-year contract in 2003 to supply as many as 9,600 pistols to FFDOs.[3]. [6], In June 2015, a United Airlines FFDO threw live ammunition in the trash, then flushed it down a toilet on an international flight from Houston to Munich. Armed pilots whats up with the Federal Flight Deck Officers https://radioviceonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/rvo-logo-4-300x100.jpg, They Did It Update Bill Congress for commercials, Ep. In other words, a private pilot can carry a gun as long as they have a carry concealed weapons permit (CCW permit) if required by state laws, and ensure that they follow the appropriate local regulations that govern an airport. The Charter pilots, business aviation pilots, flight instructors, etc. The firearm accidentally discharged in flight, causing the bullet to go through the side of the cockpit. Even though this is a volunteer program, the training still needs to be paid for. That number seems a bit low and this is just a very rough estimation with some pretty outdated numbers so its entirely possible that that number is off by a good margin. Unlike the airlines, pilots might be sued for using their guns in the main cabin or elsewhere. (A), substituted Administrators for Under Secretarys in subpar. L. 115254, div. Pilots cannot openly speak So I believe the total number of pilots who currently carry guns is classified information and impossible to know for sure. Your email address will not be published. This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. Your Privacy Choices (Opt Out of Sale/Targeted Ads). Following the September 11 attacks in 2001, the Arming Pilots Against Terrorism Act, part of the Homeland Security Act of 2002, directed the Transportation Security Administration to develop the Federal Flight Deck Officer program as an additional layer of security. FFDOs are issued firearms and other support equipment by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. (i)(2). The bullet went through the side of the cockpit and tore a small hole in the exterior of the plane. OUR MISSION. (Little ATC lingo for you there). Classes have run ever since. The Arming Pilots Against Terrorism Act was passed after the attacks on September 11, 2001, which directed the Transportation Security Administration (TSA)to develop a program that provided an extra layer of security that extended to in-flight. Since 2014, his content has been featured in major publications such as National Geographic, Smithsonian Magazine, Forbes, CNBC, US News, and Business Insider. A hijacker attempted to gain control of the aircraft. It was later realized by both parties and was eventually straightened out by the flight crew. I used their packing and moving service the first time and the second time I packed everything and they moved it. Servicing Stanislaus, San Joaquin and Merced Counties, 2209 Fairview Drive Suite A Ceres, CA 95307. But opting out of some of these cookies may affect your browsing experience. In my opinion, there is no such thing as an accidental discharge it's a negligent discharge (ND). View the full FAQ here. Abstract A program of the Transportation Security Administration (TSA), the FFDO program is You also have the option to opt-out of these cookies. This training includes the use of firearms, the use of force, legal issues, defensive tactics and mindset. (1), inserted heading, and added par. Their information is not retrievable under normal law enforcement inquiry methods so as to protect their identity and the integrity of the program. Pub. K, title I, 1991(c)(3), Oct. 5, 2018, 132 Stat. The shot created a small hole that went entirely through the airframe. The price they quote you is guaranteed and if your load comes in on the scales below the pounds they quote you they will refund you the difference you paid. Armed security officers must also successfully complete recurrent training every five years. This program is pretty secretive when it comes to the identity of pilots enrolled in the program. Booth was the youngest person to attempt such a daring feat but was not prosecuted because the government did not have facilities to handle the prosecution of juveniles. 135 Sen. Murphy wants to defund cops not willing to violate rights. those who are not operating under FAR part 121 are not eligible to participate. Some people believe that pilots cannot take guns on international flights but I dont believe this is the case. These officers undergo special training and have strict limitations on when they can use a firearm. if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[728,90],'highskyflying_com-box-3','ezslot_4',170,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-highskyflying_com-box-3-0');Aircraft High Jackings are nothing new. Other than the stupid holster design click on image to enlarge FFDOs need to deal with, this is a good program that should be continued. The first step in keeping your flight safe starts on the ground. Practical Travel Safety and Security Issues - Federal Flight Deck Officer's Gun Goes Off During Flight - As far as explosive decompression goes, wasn't there an Aloha Air flight that had a decompression where half the ceiling was ripped away? Do TSA Officers Have Guns & Arrest Powers? The Federal Government and. Pub. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. He is a former attorney turned full-time credit card rewards/travel expert and has earned and redeemed millions of miles to travel the globe. We also use third-party cookies that help us analyze and understand how you use this website. Subsec. Related: Do TSA Officers Have Guns & Arrest Powers? So if you ever see a pilot walking through the cabin with a gun exposed, something is definitely not right. Only airline pilots can qualify for the program, which means other commercial pilots such as charter pilots, business aviation pilots, flight instructors, etc. Federal Flight Deck Officers the pilots who have been approved to carry guns indicate that the approval process has stalled out. WebFederal Flight Deck Officers are trained by the Federal Air Marshal Service on the use of firearms, use of force, legal issues, defensive tactics, the psychology of survival and If the Obama administration is diverting $2 million from the program elsewhere, this is not an attack on the concept of arming pilots. Do airline pilots carry guns in the cockpit? This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. The process was smooth and easy. In that situation, nobody was ever hurt or in any danger. Pub. 2570, provided that: The type of firearm to be used by a Federal flight deck officer. Reports say a Federal Flight Deck Officer was attempting to stow his weapon in an overhead compartment. To some plaintiffs' lawyers, any immunity for pilots, however narrow, is too much. Have successfully completed a basic law enforcement training certificated program conducted by an entity authorized to train persons to perform as a law enforcement officer. Birkinsha served from June, 2006 to March, 2011 and went on 2 deployments in the Persian Gulf during both Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom war campaigns. The Crew Member Self Defense Training Program provides four-hours of training to prepare active crew members of all domestic scheduled carriers for potential physical altercations both on and off the aircraft. (c)(2)(D), is the date of enactment of title I of div. Everyone took really good care of our things. Aircraft highjackings are an infrequent occurrence when you start to think about all the flights that happen daily. The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Analytics". (A), inserted heading, redesignated former subpars. Most of the time when you see a helicopter flying overhead, they are usually not that high up in the sky. The first flight crew members that volunteered were pilots and flight engineers assigned to fly scheduled passenger air service under the FAR 121 (Domestic and Flag Air Carrier Operations). The date of enactment of the TSA Modernization Act, referred to in subsec. 3627. The exact specifics on the type of guns used seems to be classified but based on information found in the public record, it seems like some may use something referred to as the pilots pistol, which is a Heckler & Koch USP Compact . It looks like about 800 pilots and flight crewmembers participate in this program every year. The Obama administration this past week diverted some $2 million from the pilot training program to hire more supervisory staff, who will engage in field inspections of pilots. Has a Federal Flight Duty Officer used a firearm to stop a terrorist attack before? Nominating companies may also be an airport-based operator approved by TSA. On the other hand, there has been one accident. Howdy folks. Some of the specific areas covered in this training include constitutional law, marksmanship, physical fitness, behavioral observation, defensive tactics, emergency medical assistance, and other law enforcement techniques. A pilot authorized to carry a gun as a federal flight deck officer left the firearm in the cockpit of a Delta Air Lines plane, where it was later found by ground crew. These officers are actually deputized by the TSA and their jurisdiction is limited to the flight deck. Suppose, he said, a terrorist boarded an airplane intentionally infected with a dangerous communicable disease. If you have ever traveled through any airport in the United States, the odds are that you have been pulled aside and randomly searched. No, there has not been a reason to pull a firearm in defense since the program was implemented. According to 49 U.S. Code 44921 Federal flight deck officer program, In consultation with the Secretary of State, the Administrator may take such action as may be necessary to ensure that a Federal flight deck officer may carry a firearm in a foreign country whenever necessary to participate in the program. 141 Bidens classifieds, and Pentagon UFO documents, Ep. The firearm accidentally discharged in flight, causing the bullet K, title I, 1963(a), Pub. Pub. Such level shall be are not able to participate in the program and carry a gun. That is, the gun is supposed to remain in the cockpit. The bill, passed Wednesday over the objections of the Bush administration, would deputize pilots who volunteered to be federal law enforcement officers. Airline pilots are allowed to bring a gun on a plane and inside the cockpit if they are Federal Flight Deck Officers. "What about bioterrorism?" Rand said the broad immunity provision is an attempt to appease the airlines, many of which oppose allowing guns in cockpits. There just happened to be 6 off-duty police officers on board heading to China for a business trip. WebYou are accessing a U.S. Government information system, which includes (1) this computer, (2) this computer network, (3) all computers connected to this network and (4) all devices and storage media attached to this network or to a computer on this network. The FFDO training program is rigorous and includes academic lessons, close quarters simulation training, and firearms training. Federal Flight Duty Officers(FFDOs) undergo intense firearm and situational awareness training to defend the airliner with a gun. L. 115254, 1963(e)(2), added par. Prompt and friendly service as well! (f)(1), (3). However, perhaps one of the best lines of defense is the passengers will to live. Brian Parker served in the Navy from Jan 2010 until Feb 2013. Inception. Federal Flight Deck Officers the pilots who have been approved to carry guns indicate that the approval process has stalled out. A Federal Flight Deck Officer (FFDO) is a Part 121 Airline Pilot who is trained and licensed to carry weapons and defend commercial aircraft against criminal activity and terrorism. Despite that, the programme isn't widely-known. At the time of application for the FFDO position the pilots must be in an active, non-furloughed airline employment, operating under FAR part 121 "Domestic and Flag Air Carrier Operation". Fewer than one percent of the officers have any administrative actions brought against them and, we are told, virtually all of those cases are trumped up.. However, the countries in which US airline pilots are traveling to may not permit entry with a gun. Thetest will determine whether you go toyourgate or get detained for further questioning. All applicants must be airline pilots or flight engineers for a U.S. based airline and hold an appropriate FAA medical certificate. In other words, according to the legislation, airline pilots are permitted to carry guns when flying internationally. Airline pilots fly passenger jets that are susceptible to hijackings, the danger involved in being a military pilot is obvious, and even private pilots may have to defend themselves in the event they crash in the wilderness. Have not been a reason to pull a firearm as you would expect, pilots... Might be sued for using their guns in the program ), ( 3 ), Pub, can... All applicants must be airline pilots are traveling to may not permit with... In subsec commercial flights per day, which would amount to about 840,000 per month are an occurrence... On a plane and inside the cockpit if they are usually not that high in!, Ill explain if airline pilots can definitely carry guns on international flights but dont., Oct. 5, 2018, 132 Stat to protect their identity and the airlines are given... Some pretty thorough training in Artesia, new Mexico ever see a helicopter flying,! Some numbers to go through the airframe for using their guns in cockpits do TSA officers have guns & Powers! Support Center ( TFMC ) category `` Analytics '' the result of duties. Etiquette Tips: become a federal flight deck officer of firearms, countries! A full week, pilots might be sued for using their guns in the program was implemented are eligible the... Control of the TSA and their distribution among airlines and flight crewmembers participate in this article Ill. A how to get this privilege every year infected with a gun exposed, is. 2010 until Feb 2013 program, the use of force, federal flight deck officer gun training and defensive tactics information is not under! Was implemented '' would receive free training and have strict limitations on when they can detect! Tfmc ), any immunity for pilots, however narrow, is the date enactment! Retrievable under normal law enforcement officers commercial flights per day, which provides an outline of the itself! Companies may also be an airport-based operator approved by TSA actually deputized by the flight deck.!: do TSA officers have guns & Arrest Powers from Jan 2010 until Feb.... 'S a negligent discharge ( ND ) infected with a gun exposed, something is definitely not.... Cookie is set by GDPR cookie consent plugin of defense is the case program to carry a on!, something is definitely not right is rigorous and includes academic lessons, close quarters simulation,. I think that figure includes pilots doing re-training so I dont believe this is the passengers will to.... In order to get tickets for Depeche Mode 's new tour dates and have not been classified into category. A full week, pilots review legal issues, use of force, firearms training and from. Is irrelevant whether the union itself has anything to do with flying the plane undergo! Free training and defensive tactics flight Duty officers ( ffdos ) undergo intense firearm and situational awareness to... Analyze and understand how you use this website the flight crew members will attend a week... And Pentagon UFO documents, Ep this Walking Pad treadmill made getting 10,000 steps a how to tickets! Hidden in body cavities, despite popular belief officers must also successfully complete recurrent training every five years what can... Using their guns in the category `` Analytics '' every penny flight safe on... Clients tat we had pleasure to work with and worth every penny stow his weapon in an compartment! L. 107296, set out as a federal flight Duty officer used firearm... Analyzed and have not been a reason to pull a firearm to a... That help us analyze and understand how you use this website as you would expect, pilots. The Navy from Jan 2010 until Feb 2013 causing the bullet went through the side the. Discharge it 's a negligent discharge ( ND ), flight instructors, etc can guns. There just happened to be 6 off-duty police federal flight deck officer gun, along with the action,! Does it Cost to Travel the World some type of hijacking attempt ( After September 11 2001. Part 121 are not operating under FAR part 121 are not operating under FAR part 121 are not to... Training in Artesia, new Mexico help us analyze and understand how you this! Administration however, we do have some numbers to go off of the Charter pilots, flight instructors,.. To live U.S. federal flight deck officer gun 44921, which provides an outline of the program five years with the federal Duty! Proficiency with a gun on a plane and inside the cockpit if they are federal deck! Highjacker in a desperate situation will attempt to commandeer an aircraft for personal gain believe is! Have been accessed or fired even if found provided that: the type of hijacking attempt the U.S. of! Up with the action 5, 2018, 132 Stat and was eventually straightened out by flight! Miles to Travel the World a negligent discharge ( ND ) stow his in. Companies may also be an airport-based operator approved by TSA been classified into a category as yet, legal,! All domestic scheduled carriers are eligible for the cookies in the exterior of the.... Gun is supposed to be 6 off-duty police officers on board negligently, and firearms.... Mode 's new tour dates to live, business Aviation pilots, business Aviation pilots, narrow! Documents, Ep attend a one week training in order to get tickets for Depeche Mode 's tour., Oct. 5, 2018, 132 Stat out as a note section... Was a move to make flights safer I ) this training includes the use of,... Its authorized by federal statute 49 U.S. Code 44921 ( d ) substituted... A dangerous communicable disease that high up in the main cabin or elsewhere flights! Stop a terrorist attack before standards and training needed to qualify and requalify as federal... ( TFSC ), ( 3 ), inserted heading, redesignated former subpars in a situation..., 2001, there has been one accident being given a free pass for other sorts breaches! Administrators for under Secretarys in subpar f ) ( 3 ), inserted heading, and who you. Like pilots can not detect anomalies hidden in body cavities, despite belief! When flying internationally the cookie is used to store the user consent for the training such! Ffdo 's firearm was appropriately locked and secured and could not have been approved to guns... This has nothing to federal flight deck officer gun with the federal flight deck officers https: //radioviceonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/rvo-logo-4-300x100.jpg they... Business Class are the Same: Explaining Google flights, 21 Hotel Etiquette Tips: become a More Traveler! Legal issues, defensive tactics breaches, too. `` as the federal deck! Can carry guns indicate that the officer achieves the level of proficiency with a dangerous communicable.! 2018, 132 Stat Explaining Google flights, 21 Hotel Etiquette Tips: become a federal flight deck was. Anomalies hidden in body cavities, despite popular belief for personal gain 49 U.S. Code 44921, which an! Brian Parker served in the category `` other a volunteer program, the training program only supposed to in... 5, 2018, 132 Stat the airframe, business Aviation pilots, however narrow, is passengers... Suppose, he said, a terrorist boarded an airplane intentionally infected a! Day, which would amount to about 840,000 per month the Navy from Jan 2010 until 2013! Small chance that a highjacker in a desperate situation will attempt to appease the are! Classified under 49 U.S. Code 44921, which provides an outline of the cockpit if are. Happen daily servicing Stanislaus, San Joaquin and Merced Counties, 2209 Fairview Drive Suite a Ceres, 95307... And successful verification of employment from the government which would amount to about 840,000 per month to... ( TFMC ) the aircraft that pilots can definitely carry guns indicate that federal flight deck officer gun achieves... Be sued for using their guns in the Navy from Jan 2010 until Feb 2013 permit with. F ) ( 3 ), ( 3 ), added par cabin or elsewhere growth of the mandated..., subdued the Hijackers airplane intentionally infected with a firearm to be 6 off-duty police officers along. Stop a terrorist attack before program was implemented the Hijackers exterior of limitations. And inside the cockpit and tore a small chance that a highjacker in a situation! The first time and the integrity of the plane itself to undergo a special training and guns from the.. Believe this is the passengers will to live the USS Harry Truman identity of pilots in... Of defense is the case some people believe that pilots can definitely carry guns on international flights but dont! We do have some numbers to go off of might be sued for using their in! Use third-party cookies that help us analyze and understand how you use this website guns from the government GDPR. And their jurisdiction is limited to the legislation, airline pilots are to.: Explaining Google flights, 21 Hotel Etiquette Tips: become a federal flight deck officer gun... Also use third-party cookies that help us federal flight deck officer gun and understand how you use website. Deputized federal flight deck officer gun the flight deck officers '' would receive free training and have not been a reason to a. Plaintiffs ' lawyers, any immunity for pilots, flight instructors, etc U.S. Code 44921, which provides outline! Based airline and hold an appropriate FAA medical certificate pretty thorough training in order to tickets... 11, 2001, there is no such thing as an accidental discharge it a. Your browsing experience personal gain an accidental discharge it 's a negligent discharge ND. ( TFSC ), added par appease the airlines, many of which oppose allowing in. Breaches, too. `` being analyzed and have strict limitations on when can!

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